Sash and Case Windows

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mac72
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Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:50 pm

Hi,

I am looking for some advice.

I am half way through getting my sash and case windows refurbished (6 panes over 6). The building is Georgian and is within a World Heritage Site (it is listed).

The joiners have attached new parting beads. The beads are 30mm wide. They have been nailed straight onto the the casement (not inserted into a routered groove). As a result, the parting beads do not align with the front panels of the casement (they are about 15mm closer to the glass panes).

Is this ok? Is this standard practice? Other flats in the area have the parting beads protruding around 15mm from the case.

Also, the draft proofing has been attached to the parting beads, instead of the sashes. Is this ok too?

I would appreciate advice, thanks. Be great if someone replied before the joiners return on Monday.

Many Thanks
Mac

Leveller2911
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:31 pm

Part beads should never be nailed either in a groove and should be made to be a push fit into the groove. Not sure what you mean by "As a result, the parting beads do not align with the front panels of the casement (they are about 15mm closer to the glass panes)".. Can you post some photo's or a link to some photo's. The amount the parting beads protrude from the case (Pully stile) depends on how wide they machine the part beads. If I'm making a sash window that will have draught/weather strips fitted then I make my part beads 28-30 mm wide so that when they are inserted into the groove (6-8mm deep) they protrude far enough so I can put the draught excluders in the sashes (back and front faces of the sash stiles etc) and the draughte excluders can't be seen because the part bead,staff bead and outside linings cover the draught srips.

Its not aroun to fit the draught strips to the part bead but I don't like it because it weakens the already thin part beads, far better to fit the draught strips in the sashes.

Sounds like you may have some Carpenters/ Joiners who may not know what they are doing but as I said some photo's would help. I do a lot of Grade II & II* Listed work and I think a few other guys on here do too.....

mac72
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:37 pm

Hi thanks for reply. I have attached a sketch. I will try to get photo.

Thanks, appreciate advice
Mac
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scan0001.jpg

Leveller2911
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:06 pm

Is there a groove in the pully stile Mac? I'm a bit confused as to whether there is a groove or not.If there is then the part bead should be a snug push fit so it doesn't fall out but not too tight that when it swells up a bit you can't get it out in the future.

The only time I've ever seen a boxframe sash window without a groove in the pully stile was a new window made by someone who didn't know how they are made.. It's neither here nor there that the bead sticks out past the outside lining site line to be honest.Its a minor point really and just looks a bit too wide but won't affect the way the window works/operates.The bigger issue is how the sash will slide up and down long term when the part bead moves (which it will) because its not in a groove. When I make them I always machine a groove in the head too and fit a part bead on the head pully stile.

If your paying good money then the work needs to be right..............

mac72
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:16 pm

Hi,

There isn't a groove. I see what you mean about the bead being liable to move. Fortunately the top sash will be fixed shut (the joiners told me it would have always been like this) so it is only by sliding up and down the bottom sash that will move the bead.

I was concerned about the bead sticking out further than the outside lining because it is clearly different than the neighbours' windows (there are 30 identical windows on the building).

Is it a big job to cut a groove in the case? They have already fixed the parting beads.

I will attach a photo once I have learned how to reduce it in size (too man MBytes to upload).

Thanks very much for advice. It is extremely helpful.

Mac

mac72
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:25 pm

photo attached

Leveller2911
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:28 pm

mac72 wrote:Hi,

There isn't a groove. I see what you mean about the bead being liable to move. Fortunately the top sash will be fixed shut (the joiners told me it would have always been like this) so it is only by sliding up and down the bottom sash that will move the bead.

I was concerned about the bead sticking out further than the outside lining because it is clearly different than the neighbours' windows (there are 30 identical windows on the building).

Is it a big job to cut a groove in the case? They have already fixed the parting beads.

I will attach a photo once I have learned how to reduce it in size (too man MBytes to upload).

Thanks very much for advice. It is extremely helpful.

Mac
Its very unusual not to have a part bead groove even if the top sash is fixed. Usually when a sash window is made with the intention that the top sash doesn't open you would make the boxframe as usual but not cut in the pullys for the top sash. If it does stand out from the neighbours it will only cause a problem if the Conservation officer spots it which he may. Thing is if the original part beads weren't as wide it means that when the guys doing the work now fitted their wider part beads they would need to cut back the meeting stiles to accommodate the wider part beads now if this is picked up by the CO he may make them fit narrow Part beads and if they do you will have a 15mm wide gap to let the draughts in.

Not really practical to machine grooves now as you can't get a router within 150mm of the top or bottom of the pully stile height..

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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:35 pm

mac72 wrote:rsz_1rsz_4photo.jpgphoto attached

Looking at your pic Mac I'm wondering if at some point someone has fitted new timbers in front of the original pully stile which would have had a groove.Maybe because there was rot and they wanted to cover it up. The timber sections in the photo don't look right to me.

If you took the fairly new looking pieces of timber that are towards the inside of the room off I think you may have the original pully stile behind it. At some point someone has "faced" up the old PS with new timber (without a groove for a part bead) and then either made new sashes to the reduced width or they planed down the existing sashes to fit.............Something is definitely not right ..In my opinion for looking at the photo.

If possible can ypu post some more pix, one of the pully for the inside sash, one of the complete window (from inside)?

mac72
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Re: Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:47 pm

Yes, I see that they have already cut an extra 15mm from the sashes (meeting stiles) to allow the new 30mm parting beads through.

Thanks for the router advice.

I see if they can make the parting beads narrower, and maybe patch up the larger holes in meeting styles.

I am not sure why none of my cases have grooves cut. I will attach a pic of the setup before I started the work

Thanks again
Mac

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