Replacement Sash and Case Windows

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mac72
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Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:58 pm

Hi,

I am looking to replace my sash and case windows. They are part of a Grade A listed building.

I would like my new windows to be hard wearing, e.g. last 100 years!

Can someone recommend the best type of wood. I have heard that nowadays the type of wood used does not last as long as the original windows.

Thanks
Mac

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by promhandicam » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:36 pm

In my opinion, it will be down to how the windows are maintained rather than what wood they are made from. I would have thought that assuming they are well made and regularly maintained and painted with an appropriate paint at regular intervals then unsorted redwood would be fine.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:01 am

Ok, thanks for the advice,

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:52 pm

Over the year I have repaired a number of sliding sash windows, probably well over 100+, and in most cases it's been the cill that has rotted. Sometimes the bottom rail of the bottom sash and if the cill goes so does the box section near to it. But in most cases it's just the bottom cill and nearby box section.

For this reason I would suggest that you pay extra attention to the jointing process during construction of the Box sash windows ensuring that they receive copious amounts of wood preservative and all bottom edges are painted and correctly sealed during construction. Other than that I would follow the advice given by "promhandicam" (Steve).

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by JonR » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:28 pm

If your near Faversham i can put you onto a guy who is conservation approved for his box sashes, he uses Accoya(Google that) for all his exterior work. I have made 4 box sashes with Accoya myself but next down from Accoya for me would be Utile though some use Sapele also.

Last year we renovated some old sash window 100+ in age and they were a PITA! but we made a half decent job of it in the end thanks to "Repair care"
https://www.repair-care.co.uk/

Another job looked at in Blackheath London was a total replacement of all the sashes, for there age they were in really good nick and a suggestion to save costs was to just overhaul and replace the glass with Slimlite sealed units http://www.slimliteglass.co.uk/ never got any further than looking at that job so i cant say how viable an option it was.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:26 pm

Thanks for the advice Jon. All extremely useful. I am in Edinburgh. I will check out Accoya.

Cheers
Iain

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:53 pm

Just my penneth worth but I've seen dozens of boxframes repaired in the last few years with alsorts of fancy fillers,glues ,splice repairs etc and none of them were any good. They ranged from splice repairs where the joints would shrink and move at different rates because both pieces of the joint (existing and new timber) have different moisture content and as such crack the joint a few days/weeks are finishing ,moisture ingress and within 5yrs will rot again.

Then the filler method where they pump in fillers which when cure can be sanded,moulded etc and the question should be asked why didn't they just replace the entire outside Lining ,architraves etc instead of filling?. Like a sill , why not replace the whole sill and do away with the extra joint between the filler and timber?............ For me filling is the stuff for cowboys and medicine men selling a tonic which will cure all ills...........

I'm gonna buck the trend here and say 80% of repairs are carried out by people who don't actually know how the windows are constructed (repair an outside lining rather than replace the entire thing) ,understand timber and how it moves or use common sense. I've seen some shocking work carried out by "sash window specialists" which costs the eath and typically £700-1000 to "overhaul "a boxframe .

Sure if a splice repair is done correctly (ie splice 45 degrees so that water runs off the joint rather than into the joint which I often see) it will last a few years but eventually it will need replacing so it should always be seen as a temporary measure. I don't think unsorted Joinery Pine is a decent timber to use nowdays and even TRADA rate it as "slighlty durable" and its about as unstable a timber we can use outside, especially for splicing where you want the joint to remain stable. For me if a box frame has been previously spliced to any degree and now rotting again its time to replace the entire window........... For me it would be Accoya,Utile ,Sapele or Douglas Fir............ Sorry for appearing to be grumpy but my back is aching like a bitch......... :roll:

regarding "slimlite" units . When I used them a few years ago I contacted them for a quote and they gave me a number to ring. The number was to a small company who I later found out just take orders and not slimlite themselves . They then get the units made and supply them (probably from slimlite) but I've been told that these small companies are just set up to take orders and if you need to claim on a warranty they may well not be around in a few years time and because you bought through them there is no warranty from slimlite. This is what I have been told so take it with a pinch of salt. Also worth noting they charge 3x as much as other companies and charge a huge fee to deliver claiming they come via a "specialist delivery company" when I asked could they use Palletways,Palletforce I was told no because of the nature of the product and breakage. The delivery came and guess what ,it was Palletways which I could have organised for £40 and Slimlite charged me well over £100 delivery.. Decent units and well packed but sharp practice with regards delivery costs and possible warranty issues.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:04 am

Thanks for the advice. I don't think I will go for a slimlite as I am trying to keep the original look of the windows.

Yes, it seems that a lot of people try to repair these windows when it may seem better to replace. I will have a look into the timbers that you recommend (Accoya,Utile ,Sapele or Douglas Fir).

Thanks again
Iain

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:27 pm

mac72 wrote:Thanks for the advice. I don't think I will go for a slimlite as I am trying to keep the original look of the windows.

Yes, it seems that a lot of people try to repair these windows when it may seem better to replace. I will have a look into the timbers that you recommend (Accoya,Utile ,Sapele or Douglas Fir).

Thanks again
Iain
The option of repair verses replace often depends upon the finances associated with each and the amount of disruption and re-decoration you can put up with after the work is done. In the past I have charged around £300 to repair a Box frame which would include replacing the cill and surrounding framework although this would not include replacing the full length of each section of the box. I think at the time replacing with new would have worked out at around £1200 including the associated re-plastering etc so quite a fir bit more. The problem I have found in the past is that customers just did not want to pay the extra for replacements. I'm not sure of costs now as it has been about five years since I last repaired a Box Sash but I have been asked to repair some recently so may be looking for some advice on costing. Sliding Sash Windows are an attractive window to look at and I'm sure if you are making them yourself you will enjoy every minute of the process.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:04 am

Are you planning on making these yourself ?
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by woodsmith » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:30 am

Another advantage of repair is that there is generally no need to involve the Planning Department, a massive bonus as they can be unbelievably obstructive.
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:55 am

Hi,

Thanks for the advice.

No, I was not going to make these myself. I would love to but I have not got the time to learn how to do this properly (I am not a joiner...just someone who appreciates joinery work).

I got a price for replacement (box and sashes) at £1500. The company specified Redwood timber. I was asking the question if it would be worth asking for the most durable timber (the company said that sometimes they make them using a Norwegian timber which is very hard wearing).

Thanks
Iain(Mac)

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:14 am

Where are you based, Iain ? That price sounds toppy to me but then I'm way, way up North
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:03 pm

mac72 wrote:Hi,



I got a price for replacement (box and sashes) at £1500. The company specified Redwood timber. I was asking the question if it would be worth asking for the most durable timber (the company said that sometimes they make them using a Norwegian timber which is very hard wearing).

Thanks
Iain(Mac)
Hi Mac,
Like TNAF mentions location can impact on prices and be honest it really depends on a few things such as size, glass spec (single or double), timber spec and fitting or supply only. Down here in East Sussex a typical Boxframe sash window with 6 pane sashes,single glazed,Sapele/Douglas Fir,primed and fitted would be in the region of £1,800+vat but that wouldn't include replacing internal linings,architraves etc so that can also impact on costs.

With smaller workshops they can be cheaper if you make more than one due to economy of manufacturing. Even going to double glazing can increase the cost a fair bit not only due to extra pane of glass but incresed weight and in many cases you need to go from cast iron weights to lead which can be twice the price and some.

I'm not sure what timber the company you asked would use that is "Norwegian timber which is very hard wearing"... I'm wondering if they mean Larch which I must admit I don't have any experience of using and I'm not even sure its grown in Norway, I know its common in Siberia.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:06 pm

For information, I paid ...:

2 off 2200mm x 1125mm 6 x 6
4 off 2200mm x 710mm 4 x 4

£6k inc VAT

5 off 1600mm x 1000mm 6 x 6

£5k inc VAT

Proper box sash with lead weights. Hardwood throughout. Single glazed. Sprayed to include the finish coat. Fitting by me.

Which looks to be about half what you would pay down there.
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Cracking prices TNAF.......... 6 boxframes for £5k+vat is ridiculously cheap. Were they made by a large company and did they match the mouldings etc ?. The reason I ask is if a company basically does 3 or 4 different options and makes them in large volumes I can see they would be cheaper but still, those prices are way below what I could do. Looking at it and doing a quick back of a fag packet clalculation I reckon there is at least £2k+ worth of materials so that leaves £3k for labour. 6 windows would take be approx 3.5-4 weeks to make .I work on the basis of charging £30 ph for my labour.

One question I do have is looking at the first 6 Boxes which are 2200 high and max 1125 wide why did you need lead weights because those dimensions would easily accept cast iron weights .

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:19 pm

Leveller2911 wrote:Cracking prices TNAF.......... 6 boxframes for £5k+vat is ridiculously cheap. Were they made by a large company and did they match the mouldings etc ?. The reason I ask is if a company basically does 3 or 4 different options and makes them in large volumes I can see they would be cheaper but still, those prices are way below what I could do. Looking at it and doing a quick back of a fag packet clalculation I reckon there is at least £2k+ worth of materials so that leaves £3k for labour. 6 windows would take be approx 3.5-4 weeks to make .I work on the basis of charging £30 ph for my labour.

One question I do have is looking at the first 6 Boxes which are 2200 high and max 1125 wide why did you need lead weights because those dimensions would easily accept cast iron weights .
No it was a relatively small company. Re the mouldings, they were very happy to use my own cutters which are a specific broken lambs tongue. Not sure about the cast iron vs lead...they supplied it. Good company.
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:38 pm

So how are you getting along?

When comparing prices make sure everything is even and included and like for like price. You can have windows powder coated which is supposed to be very durable.

There are several ways to make Box Sash Windows, so ask to see the construction details if you can. Some Box Sash windows that I have repaired had the box sections butt together and nailed, some are fit into grooved housings, some have horns some don't, some have the box scribed over the cill others have the box section housed in the cill etc. Some will put a decorative bead mould on the outside of the box and some just leave the box section square edge. Make sure you are going to get what you want before ordering on price alone.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by 9fingers » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:10 am

I did not think powder coating would work on wood both from needing electrostatic powder deposition which needs a conductive surface like metal and that it has to be cooked afterwards but reading here https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/prod ... 35221.html
They seem to have cracked the problems
Bob
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:37 am

9fingers wrote:I did not think powder coating would work on wood both from needing electrostatic powder deposition which needs a conductive surface like metal and that it has to be cooked afterwards but reading here https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/prod ... 35221.html
They seem to have cracked the problems
Bob
In the early part of the year, I worked on a house conversion project that had sash windows replaced and the windows had a finish that looked very uniform, smooth and without any grain showing. I asked the site Manager what the finish was and he replied "Powder Coated". I did not look into this any more Bob but took his word for it, maybe he was wrong or mistaken but the windows did have an excellent finish unlike conventional hand painted windows. I'm off work for a couple of weeks but when I return I should be on another conversion job with the same Site Manager so can check, with him, to see if he can confirm the coating on the previous job was actual "Powder Coating".

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by JonR » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:29 am

Could have have been Teknos sprayed finish. The job that we did the sash renovation on had new box sashes bought for the extension and they came over from Lithuania. They were spray finished in Teknos and were faultless....and cheap!

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by mac72 » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:10 pm

Thanks everyone for all the comments. All very helpful. Things I would never thought of (powder coating, etc)

Cheers
Mac

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:10 pm

Hope it's ok to restart this thread?

I've been looking at getting some old sash windows replaced, going from single to double glazed at the same time.

For a triple sash of approx 2250x1700mm with no muntins, so just 6 panes, in Accoya, with only the middle sash opening, using proper cords and weights not springs, I am looking at £4500 fitted.

Oddly a refurb rather than replacement came in at almost exactly the same amount.

So question one: Does that sound a tad pricey? (it does to me!)
Any other manufacturers worth trying? Anyone in Eastern Europe making them?

Question two: I have the time and space to get some used machines and learn to make my own. I think the cost of one window would cover a used spindle moulder, mortiser, table saw. (3 phase possibly as I have a rotary inverter for a mill and lathe). I have, in total 4x triple sash's to do and 4x triple bays. So going by the quotes so far, the thick end of £40,000. I think that even buying all the machines, making 3 or 4 test windows and then doing it myself would come in at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost?

Actually there are maybe 5 more double sash's that I could do too, not 100% necessary, but hey, if I'm on a roll...

I have no idea what the materials cost is for Accoya but a quick look at the DGU's showed me that 6 panes for a triple sash will be about £750 for Pilkington K 14mm units.

My woodworking expereince is modest, I'm more of a metal machinist, but I have no doubt I could do it.

Any advice or thoughts welcome!

Cheers!

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by JonR » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:27 pm

Where are you located as you could be lucky that one of us could be local to you that make them.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:43 pm

rich3911 wrote:Hope it's ok to restart this thread?

I've been looking at getting some old sash windows replaced, going from single to double glazed at the same time.

For a triple sash of approx 2250x1700mm with no muntins, so just 6 panes, in Accoya, with only the middle sash opening, using proper cords and weights not springs, I am looking at £4500 fitted.

Oddly a refurb rather than replacement came in at almost exactly the same amount.

So question one: Does that sound a tad pricey? (it does to me!)
Any other manufacturers worth trying? Anyone in Eastern Europe making them?

Question two: I have the time and space to get some used machines and learn to make my own. I think the cost of one window would cover a used spindle moulder, mortiser, table saw. (3 phase possibly as I have a rotary inverter for a mill and lathe). I have, in total 4x triple sash's to do and 4x triple bays. So going by the quotes so far, the thick end of £40,000. I think that even buying all the machines, making 3 or 4 test windows and then doing it myself would come in at 1/3 to 1/2 the cost?

Actually there are maybe 5 more double sash's that I could do too, not 100% necessary, but hey, if I'm on a roll...

I have no idea what the materials cost is for Accoya but a quick look at the DGU's showed me that 6 panes for a triple sash will be about £750 for Pilkington K 14mm units.

My woodworking expereince is modest, I'm more of a metal machinist, but I have no doubt I could do it.

Any advice or thoughts welcome!

Cheers!
That's quite a loaded question there and you could obtain a lot of varied answers so maybe narrow it down a bit. Any chance you can upload a picture of one of the windows you are looking at replacing? it would help to see them. Whereabouts do you live in the UK, assuming it is the UK. When you say muntins are you referring to the glazing bars that separate the glazed sections (Not the frame of the sliding sash, the bars inside it that separate the glass)?

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:51 pm

rich3911 wrote:
For a triple sash of approx 2250x1700mm with no muntins, so just 6 panes, in Accoya, with only the middle sash opening, using proper cords and weights not springs, I am looking at £4500 fitted.
When you say a "Triple sash" do you mean a sash window divided into 3 sections each with 2 sashes?..........Or do you mean a Venetian sash window where the 2 centre sashes are wider than the sashes each side of the centre sashes?. Muntins are in doors, mullions are in windows. :)

Oddly a refurb rather than replacement came in at almost exactly the same amount.
Wouldn't be a quote by one of those supposed "sash window specialist" companies would it?. Ventrolla or similar?............Just to add there is no such thing as a "sash window specialist", any time served carpenter worth his salt would know how to renovate a sash window and I've seen some truly shocking work carried out by these so called "specialist" cowboys..
So question one: Does that sound a tad pricey? (it does to me!)

Accoya is very expensive, height of window may dictate the need for lead weights instead of iron ones which again will increase costs so it would help to see some piccys...
Anyone in Eastern Europe making them?
Go and wash your mouth out with soap............On a serious note its all very well having windows made in Lithuania or Poland but having handed over your money what do you do if the windows don't fit or rot within 5yrs?. In all honesty you can't beat a local company with a good reputation who will want to keep you as a long term client. Many of my clients have been with me for 20yrs or more.


I have no idea what the materials cost is for Accoya but a quick look at the DGU's showed me that 6 panes for a triple sash will be about £750 for Pilkington K 14mm units.
Unless the property is Listed a 14mm unit won't meet Building regs so you need to consider all the implications of making them yourself. Sash windows are more tricky than a casement or stormproof window.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:05 am

Right, sorry for the delay responding, took a while for the post to be approved!

So where am I? Dorset. Purbeck.

Picture of the window, here:
outside of window.jpg
I have since gathered some more info on costs etc.

I think the materials will come in at about £1500 for 2 windows.

Given the cost of having bespoke windows made and fitted (£9500 for 2), there is a strong financial motivation for me to think about DIY, especially as I have 4 bays to do at some point! I have the time and the space to think about making my own, not to mention an interest in learning to do it.

I can see where these prices are coming from, assuming it will take maybe 15-20 hours per window to make and 2 men, 2 days to fit:
£1500 material. £1500 labor. £1000 fitting. £4000 margin. £1600 VAT.

(edit: I think I have under estimated the labor time. 30 hours to make and paint each window? So perhaps labor is about £2500 and margin is £3000)


Regarding DGU, yes I should be looking at U Value 1.6, so 4-16-4 or 4-18-4. The existing sashes are 40mm. Thanks for spotting that!


I did wonder if someone would be interested in doing just the machining to make a 'kit of parts', so I could do the painting, assembly and fitting?


Hope that answers some of the questions and I hope I can pick a few brains here....

In the meantime, I've been reading Cassells Carpentry and Joinery! What a great book!

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:19 am

Why not use Sapele instead of Accoya ?

If you do decide to make them yourself and buy a spindle moulder then please, please seriously consider going on a training course on how to use it safely.
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:48 am

thatsnotafestool wrote:Why not use Sapele instead of Accoya ?

If you do decide to make them yourself and buy a spindle moulder then please, please seriously consider going on a training course on how to use it safely.
I will use Accoya because I want the durability and stability. We are in an exposed location.

Here is an interesting blog from a guy who made his own sashes and front door with very modest machines. Well worth a look for anyone contemplating DIY sashes.

https://slidingsash.blogspot.com/2008/09/

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:32 am

Hi Rich,

Thank you for the pictures and price updates.

I can see that having received a quote of £4500 to make and fit one Box sash window (with three sections, six sashes) has now given you the incentive to look at ways of reducing the overall cost.

I am not quite clear on how your costings actually break down when looking at your figures. From this thread you wrote:I
have no idea what the materials cost is for Accoya but a quick look at the DGU's showed me that 6 panes for a triple sash will be about £750 for Pilkington K 14mm units.

So if we look at your figures for the supply of glass for each window the glass alone comes in at £750 if I can assume this is glass supply only you will also have the additional cost of glazing materials (sealants etc) so you might add up to £100 for this element too. I don't think you will get away with £50 per window but if you said you could this would make the glass element £800 for each window.

So if you take £800 off the £4500 you now have £3700 to play around with.

In your post 30 Jan, you allowed £1500 for the material cost of two windows.
I think the materials will come in at about £1500 for 2 windows.
This allows a material cost (excluding glass) £750 for each window (including fittings, weights etc?) which sounds low to me if using Accoya? I am not sure about the cost of Accoya but I think you would be looking at a cost of £450 in redwood alone.

Box sash windows: the box sections are mainly pse planks (timber that has been planed both on the sides and edges) with a solid cill (machined to profile from say £150x 75mm timber or similar size) and then solid sash sections made in to sash frames.

If you calculate the window elements to lengths and allow for current stock lengths you can obtain a estimate for timber cost. There are online companies that can supply all of the sundries such as sash cords, pulleys, catches and draft strip etc based on your window proposed window and glass requirements. These companies will work out what sundries you need obtain for each window and give you a cost too (try: Mighton).

When you remove your existing windows you may need to consider some re-plastering internally and of course re-decoration of the room too (plasterwork cost should be added to your price of course).

I used to make Box Sash windows with limited machinery (more than you are considering using though) and each window would take approximately 4.5 days to make (approximately 36 hours) per Box Sash window, made with traditional pulley system, glazing bars (muntins to you LoL) single glazed.

One of the obstacles you will find making windows of this size (three section Box Sash) is that they will be very heavy and difficult to handle for one person so there might be a point when you will need to enrol the help of someone else to simply move the window around or turn it over, if you don't have any friends that owe favours then maybe factor in a bit of extra labour cost.

I think you may have just nipped the tip of the iceberg but this is a very interesting post so keep us updated please.

Mark

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:05 am

JonR wrote:Could have have been Teknos sprayed finish. The job that we did the sash renovation on had new box sashes bought for the extension and they came over from Lithuania. They were spray finished in Teknos and were faultless....and cheap!
I am now working on another house renovation with the same site manager, JonR, and so checked the information he gave me previously regarding the windows having "Powder Coated Finish" and he said he just thought they were Powder Coated! LoL. I raised the subject because the Architect on this renovation is using Mumford and Woods as a window supplier/manufacturer (The same as for the previous job). Apparently Mumfords are using "larch" for these windows and not Accoya (info from the manager).

Mark

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:26 am

Meccarroll wrote:Hi Rich,

Thank you for the pictures and price updates.

I can see that having received a quote of £4500 to make and fit one Box sash window (with three sections, six sashes) has now given you the incentive to look at ways of reducing the overall cost.

I am not quite clear on how your costings actually break down when looking at your figures. From this thread you wrote:I
have no idea what the materials cost is for Accoya but a quick look at the DGU's showed me that 6 panes for a triple sash will be about £750 for Pilkington K 14mm units.

So if we look at your figures for the supply of glass for each window the glass alone comes in at £750 if I can assume this is glass supply only you will also have the additional cost of glazing materials (sealants etc) so you might add up to £100 for this element too. I don't think you will get away with £50 per window but if you said you could this would make the glass element £800 for each window.

So if you take £800 off the £4500 you now have £3700 to play around with.

In your post 30 Jan, you allowed £1500 for the material cost of two windows.
I think the materials will come in at about £1500 for 2 windows.
This allows a material cost (excluding glass) £750 for each window (including fittings, weights etc?) which sounds low to me if using Accoya? I am not sure about the cost of Accoya but I think you would be looking at a cost of £450 in redwood alone.

Box sash windows: the box sections are mainly pse planks (timber that has been planed both on the sides and edges) with a solid cill (machined to profile from say £150x 75mm timber or similar size) and then solid sash sections made in to sash frames.

If you calculate the window elements to lengths and allow for current stock lengths you can obtain a estimate for timber cost. There are online companies that can supply all of the sundries such as sash cords, pulleys, catches and draft strip etc based on your window proposed window and glass requirements. These companies will work out what sundries you need obtain for each window and give you a cost too (try: Mighton).

When you remove your existing windows you may need to consider some re-plastering internally and of course re-decoration of the room too (plasterwork cost should be added to your price of course).

I used to make Box Sash windows with limited machinery (more than you are considering using though) and each window would take approximately 4.5 days to make (approximately 36 hours) per Box Sash window, made with traditional pulley system, glazing bars (muntins to you LoL) single glazed.

One of the obstacles you will find making windows of this size (three section Box Sash) is that they will be very heavy and difficult to handle for one person so there might be a point when you will need to enrol the help of someone else to simply move the window around or turn it over, if you don't have any friends that owe favours then maybe factor in a bit of extra labour cost.

I think you may have just nipped the tip of the iceberg but this is a very interesting post so keep us updated please.

Mark
Hi Mark,

Re pricing materials, I have since got better quotes from local suppliers, so the cost of the glass halved to £300 for 12 panes.

I have some rough ideas on amount of wood and a quote from the Accoya distributor come to £1000 all in.

That's for:

1 25 x 100mm Accoya Wood Grade A1 FSC Mix 70% TT-COC-001089 36.00m 0.046 5.43 metre 195.48
10/3.6 10 pcs
2 25 x 150mm Accoya Wood Grade A1 FSC Mix 70% TT-COC-001089 45.00m 0.086 8.01 metre 360.45
15/3.0 15 pcs
3 38 x 150mm Accoya Wood Grade A1 FSC Mix 70% TT-COC-001089 4.80m 0.014 12.14 metre 58.27
1/4.8 1 pcs
4 50 x 100mm Accoya Wood Grade A1 FSC Mix 70% TT-COC-001089 24.00m 0.061 10.93 metre 262.32
8/3.0 8 pcs

Other bits:

fittings: £50
lead weights:£120
misc: £100
paint: £100

total: £1670

Add in £500 for mistakes, things I didn't think of etc.

£2170.

Quotes are all £9500.

Re installing, I have a tame builder/pasterer who will be happy to help fit and make good.

I hope to recover the achitraves so I can re-use them. The are very decorative an original.


Thinking on futher, there are 4x triple sashes and 4x bays that will need doing.

Quote for bays probably £8k each

Now we are looking at £51,000 vs maybe less than £10,000 in materials if I DIY.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:33 am

Have you searched this site for other threads on sash windows ? There's been quite a lot over the years.
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:02 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:Have you searched this site for other threads on sash windows ? There's been quite a lot over the years.
Yep, and I promise not to write a magazine article about my findings! :lol:

Seriously, though I have been soaking it all in. Learning the names for all the parts, looking at drawings, following blogs, reading the classics, etc etc. on here, ukworkshop and pistonheads.

Hopefully I can post a few questions and sketches and get some advice.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Meccarroll » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:15 pm

Hi again Rich, and thank you again for your update on pricing.

I still think that the costing need to be refined a bit but you do seem to be moving quickly on it.

Not really sure how you got £51,000 verses £10,000.

Assuming your price is correct for one window:
total: £1670

Add in £500 for mistakes, things I didn't think of etc.

£2170.
4x £2170= £8680 for your four windows that have three sections ( this does not include the bay windows)

The quote you had was £4500 for one window fitted:
For a triple sash of approx 2250x1700mm with no muntins, so just 6 panes, in Accoya, with only the middle sash opening, using proper cords and weights not springs, I am looking at £4500 fitted.
That's £18,000 for the four windows all with three sections having six sashes each.

That's £18,000 professionally fitted as opposed to £8680 DIY fitted windows (made and fitted by yourself).

This gives you a saving of around £10,000 on four windows if you make and fit them yourself.

Not a bad saving BUT!!!

I'd now take an in depth look at the cost of machinery, try to consider the tooling as well as this can be more than the cost of the machinery in some cases. You will then have a better impression of how much you may actually save.

It may be worth considering obtaining quotes for the bare windows complete but unprimed and unglazed and you collect (just as an alternative).

Mark

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by Leveller2911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:14 pm

rich3911 wrote:

I hope to recover the achitraves so I can re-use them. The are very decorative an original.
If you can't save the original architraves you can have some cutters made and make your own to the exact same profile..
Thinking on futher, there are 4x triple sashes and 4x bays that will need doing.

Quote for bays probably £8k each
Those prices sound high to me. I have a job to do in May which is 3 splayed bay windows, 2.2m high x 1470mm wide mid box with 2 splay outside boxes 2.2m high x 660w ,pretty much the same as your design ,Sapele hardwood,tuff double glazed ,primed and fitted £15k total so £24k for 3 sounds very,very high to me.
Now we are looking at £51,000 vs maybe less than £10,000 in materials if I DIY.
[/quote]

By all means have a go but along with the machines you will need tooling and cutters ,none of which are cheap. If you're looking to machine shaped sash horns and you have lots of sashes to make you need to do them on the spindle moulder so again you will need cutters. Unless you're seriously minted it takes years to kit out a workshop enough to do a decent standard or workmanship and as I said previously sash windows are not as easy to make as a casement window. You have to set them out, allow enough tolerance for draught strips etc , I've seen so many sash windows made which have draught strips fitted and they are either too tight to work nicely or too slack and draughty.When you cut the pockets for the weights you need to make sure they are tall enough to take the weights so my point is there is a lot to consider when making sash windows.

Then you need to really think about machining sequences otherwise you may well find you can't run a particular cutter because you have already machined away the material which would have run against the spindle fence.

What you are looking to take on is a big job and good luck if you do........... :)

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:20 pm

Leveller2911 wrote:[.... Unless you're seriously minted it takes years to kit out a workshop enough to do a decent standard or workmanship .....

Depends on your definition of 'seriously minted' ! A Hammer combination machine, although not ideal, could do them. £6k ish ?

Or buy secondhand...I'm tempted to ditch my Hammer and get these for £3600 :o

Image
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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:31 pm

thatsnotafestool wrote:
Leveller2911 wrote:[.... Unless you're seriously minted it takes years to kit out a workshop enough to do a decent standard or workmanship .....

Depends on your definition of 'seriously minted' ! A Hammer combination machine, although not ideal, could do them. £6k ish ?

Or buy secondhand...I'm tempted to ditch my Hammer and get these for £3600 :o

Image
OK, let me know where these are! :lol:

Failing that I'll buy your hammer!

I have been looking on ebay etc. There are a couple of Felder 531's for £5k or less. But too far from me to go investigate unless I was really really serious!

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by rich3911 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:40 pm

Leveller2911 wrote:
rich3911 wrote:

I hope to recover the achitraves so I can re-use them. The are very decorative an original.
If you can't save the original architraves you can have some cutters made and make your own to the exact same profile..
Thinking on futher, there are 4x triple sashes and 4x bays that will need doing.

Quote for bays probably £8k each
Those prices sound high to me. I have a job to do in May which is 3 splayed bay windows, 2.2m high x 1470mm wide mid box with 2 splay outside boxes 2.2m high x 660w ,pretty much the same as your design ,Sapele hardwood,tuff double glazed ,primed and fitted £15k total so £24k for 3 sounds very,very high to me.
Now we are looking at £51,000 vs maybe less than £10,000 in materials if I DIY.
By all means have a go but along with the machines you will need tooling and cutters ,none of which are cheap. If you're looking to machine shaped sash horns and you have lots of sashes to make you need to do them on the spindle moulder so again you will need cutters. Unless you're seriously minted it takes years to kit out a workshop enough to do a decent standard or workmanship and as I said previously sash windows are not as easy to make as a casement window. You have to set them out, allow enough tolerance for draught strips etc , I've seen so many sash windows made which have draught strips fitted and they are either too tight to work nicely or too slack and draughty.When you cut the pockets for the weights you need to make sure they are tall enough to take the weights so my point is there is a lot to consider when making sash windows.

Then you need to really think about machining sequences otherwise you may well find you can't run a particular cutter because you have already machined away the material which would have run against the spindle fence.

What you are looking to take on is a big job and good luck if you do........... :)[/quote]

I thought the price sounded really high too, belive me!

We had a large Orangery built 3 years ago, it has 2 triple sealed windows with opening fanlights above. 2 huge patio doors and a big 4 section bi-fold. The lantern is 2.5mx5.5m. This lot in Accoya came to £17k which I thought was reasonable.

I was expecting the sash windows to come in at £2000 to £2500 each.

I had 7 quotes, all were within £200.

The bays are big and I have been quoted £6750 + VAT for one. More for the upper floors as scaffolding is needed.

So 4 triple sashes and 4 bays come to approx £4750 * 4 plus £8100 * 4 is £51400.

Going DIY, well being generous £1000 per triple sash. £1500 per bay? £10k.

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Re: Replacement Sash and Case Windows

Post by thatsnotafestool » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:42 pm

Where are you based, Rich?
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