Joinerysoft

[mark270981]

What's tsheets like! Any good? I have ten employees to keep track of as well as subbies!

[kevob]

yes its very good
You can get a 1 month demo - try it with one of your lads to see how it works out, it works best if you use quickbooks for your accounts

[Top Notch Joiner]

I agree joinerysoft is expensive, however it has to be considered carefully like any major purchase.

It is much more than quotation software as it also does production cutting plans, timber quantities for ordering, glass sizes as well as glass drawings for duplex grid layouts.

I have found their support very helpful, they employ ex joiners who understand joinery. They will set up remote access to help work through any issues with you on your computer.

I use sage accounts, the annual support is quite expensive but I have no choice since its the only way to update the payroll module. Support with them is excellent, even at tax year end

I wouldnt buy it instead of a 4 sider.

Hi there,

Were you made aware of the ongoing annual fee for Joinerysoft, before you made the initial purchase?

Did you sign a contract? Were you even given a contract?

Did you get any advance warning, when they decided to increase your annual fee?

Thank you in advance for your time.

[JerryKav]

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Jerry Kavanagh. I have worked as a consultant to the joinery industry for almost 15 years specialising in CNC production.

Most of my clients in the UK and Ireland are SME size businesses, and as such produce a wide diversity of products. My experience of JoinerySoft is that is a reasonable product if you want to only price and estimate standard doors and windows. As most of my clients are specialists it hasn't worked for most of them. But I do know some happy clients.

I am launching a new joinery production system at the W14 show in Birmingham this year. This product is 3D and capable of running any type of CNC or windowline. It is the result of 5 years research and development and is extensivly tested on several sites in the UK and Ireland.

It is my response to not being able to find a product that suits my clients. I would greatly appreciate any feedback / issues people on this forum have experienced in joinery production, and if you are visiting the show, pleas stop by and see us.

The product is CiNCh Joinery and you can see a video on it on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPwZN-ZvNY

Or check out our website:
www.cinchcam.com

[jfc]

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Jerry Kavanagh. I have worked as a consultant to the joinery industry for almost 15 years specialising in CNC production.

Most of my clients in the UK and Ireland are SME size businesses, and as such produce a wide diversity of products. My experience of JoinerySoft is that is a reasonable product if you want to only price and estimate standard doors and windows. As most of my clients are specialists it hasn't worked for most of them. But I do know some happy clients.

I am launching a new joinery production system at the W14 show in Birmingham this year. This product is 3D and capable of running any type of CNC or windowline. It is the result of 5 years research and development and is extensivly tested on several sites in the UK and Ireland.

It is my response to not being able to find a product that suits my clients. I would greatly appreciate any feedback / issues people on this forum have experienced in joinery production, and if you are visiting the show, pleas stop by and see us.


The product is CiNCh Joinery and you can see a video on it on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPwZN-ZvNY

Or check out our website:
http://www.cinchcam.com

You can have this one as its on topic and may be of interest to some of the members but don't get too spammy again please

[Top Notch Joiner]

I would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself. My name is Jerry Kavanagh. I have worked as a consultant to the joinery industry for almost 15 years specialising in CNC production.

Most of my clients in the UK and Ireland are SME size businesses, and as such produce a wide diversity of products. My experience of JoinerySoft is that is a reasonable product if you want to only price and estimate standard doors and windows. As most of my clients are specialists it hasn't worked for most of them. But I do know some happy clients.

I am launching a new joinery production system at the W14 show in Birmingham this year. This product is 3D and capable of running any type of CNC or windowline. It is the result of 5 years research and development and is extensivly tested on several sites in the UK and Ireland.

It is my response to not being able to find a product that suits my clients. I would greatly appreciate any feedback / issues people on this forum have experienced in joinery production, and if you are visiting the show, pleas stop by and see us.

The product is CiNCh Joinery and you can see a video on it on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPwZN-ZvNY

Or check out our website:
http://www.cinchcam.com

Hi there, thanks for your input. I think you have hit the nail on the head, with the text that I have highlighted above. Joinerysoft is marketed towards the bespoke joinery market. However, if you want to design and quote for a bespoke piece of joinery, it is incredibly long winded! In fact, if it's a one off piece of joinery, you're better off not bothering with Joinerysoft (which cost you an arm and a leg), and working it out yourself. I can't help feeling that Joinerysoft could be a heck of a lot more user friendly. Unless you have a simple set up, mass producing standard joinery, Joinerysoft is definitely NOT for you. But they hunt down, and sell to the purpose made joiners, such as myself. It's wrong!

[hammertime]

That music on the video is awful. It's not really a tool for pricing then ?

[ATurner]

To Top Notch Joiner,

As you requested in your private message I have made my reply public.

I am disappointed that you do not wish to disclose your customer details as I do not believe any Joinerysoft staff would treat any customer or non customer past or present adversely. We have many customers and customer feedback is very important to us. Your first point about the cost of support we take seriously and only put up our costs when we really have to. I am currently getting ready for W14, however if you wish to visit our stand hopefully we will be able to show you what we are trying to do to help joinery companies and justify the costs. I think you are under the impression Joinerysoft is making large profits and are purely in the game to take money off small joinery companies -- this is far from the truth. Joinerysoft invest about £500,000 on R&D each year and we feel we have done well to keep this level of investment continuing even through the recession. I am personally investing in Joinerysoft for the long term, which means that we are rejecting short term gains to ensure that we can provide the best product in the market for joinery companies. I realise that I cannot please everyone especially with 700 customers (or convince everyone that R&D really takes as long as it does) however we are implementing new features and changes that I believe will make a real difference to joinery businesses.

We have many customers who really do see the benefit of our JMS software and my reason for asking your profile name is that currently I have no idea what version or how much additional training or support you have had. A program like JMS is extremely powerful, however it is developing all the time and as such users need to stay abreast of the new enhancements.

The ability to provide CE markings which are validated by a UK notified body cost Joinerysoft over £60,000 last year and we increased maintenance and support by £200 for each user. I called many joinery companies to obtain feedback on the potential increase and all those questioned felt it was reasonable compared to the alternative of testing windows at over £1000 per item or other on-line calculators.

I am so sorry that you feel Joinerysoft has not reached your level of expectation however I would be happy to discuss in more detail if required or even show you a demo. I would like to think that your investment in Joinerysoft is not wasted and that you are able to maximise your return.

Kind regards,


Alan Turner
Managing Director

Joinerysoft Ltd

main Office: 01608 643302
Mobile: 07748 701886

[Top Notch Joiner]

To Top Notch Joiner,

As you requested in your private message I have made my reply public.

I am disappointed that you do not wish to disclose your customer details as I do not believe any Joinerysoft staff would treat any customer or non customer past or present adversely. We have many customers and customer feedback is very important to us. Your first point about the cost of support we take seriously and only put up our costs when we really have to. I am currently getting ready for W14, however if you wish to visit our stand hopefully we will be able to show you what we are trying to do to help joinery companies and justify the costs. I think you are under the impression Joinerysoft is making large profits and are purely in the game to take money off small joinery companies -- this is far from the truth. Joinerysoft invest about £500,000 on R&D each year and we feel we have done well to keep this level of investment continuing even through the recession. I am personally investing in Joinerysoft for the long term, which means that we are rejecting short term gains to ensure that we can provide the best product in the market for joinery companies. I realise that I cannot please everyone especially with 700 customers (or convince everyone that R&D really takes as long as it does) however we are implementing new features and changes that I believe will make a real difference to joinery businesses.

We have many customers who really do see the benefit of our JMS software and my reason for asking your profile name is that currently I have no idea what version or how much additional training or support you have had. A program like JMS is extremely powerful, however it is developing all the time and as such users need to stay abreast of the new enhancements.

The ability to provide CE markings which are validated by a UK notified body cost Joinerysoft over £60,000 last year and we increased maintenance and support by £200 for each user. I called many joinery companies to obtain feedback on the potential increase and all those questioned felt it was reasonable compared to the alternative of testing windows at over £1000 per item or other on-line calculators.

I am so sorry that you feel Joinerysoft has not reached your level of expectation however I would be happy to discuss in more detail if required or even show you a demo. I would like to think that your investment in Joinerysoft is not wasted and that you are able to maximise your return.

Kind regards,


Alan Turner
Managing Director

Joinerysoft Ltd

main Office: 01608 643302
Mobile: 07748 701886

Alan,

Thank you for taking the time to discuss my concerns about Joinerysoft openly, on an internet forum. As I said to you in my private message, I do not want to reveal my identity, as I do not want to be treated in a negative way by yourself or your staff. I also feel that having this discussion openly, can only be a positive thing for all Joinerysoft customers, present and future.

1. Why can you not leave my U-Value calculator switched on permanently? The software costs a hell of a lot of money, so to have an important part of it switched off - for what is effectively a punishment for not paying the annual maintenance fee, seems a bit off! In a way, it's like me selling someone an expensive window, only to come along and fix the openers shut when they don't pay me an annual fee. OK, it's not quite the same thing, but do you get my drift?

2. Why can't you scrap the annual maintenance fee and instead charge for 'help & support' on a pay as you go basis? Preferably in 15 minute blocks. Why punish your customers who are light users and competent users with a massive annual tax? If we want to buy version 4, we could do as a whole new bolt on - upgrade package, as and when we see fit. We shouldn't be forced into having version 4. Nor should the CE marking part of the software be forced upon us. If we want to pay a one off fee to bolt that on, we should be able to do so. If we don't want it, it shouldn't be forced upon us. Personally, I am happy with version 2, but I'm angry because you switched off my U-Value calculator. But if I decided that version 4 may be useful in the future, I should be able to purchase version 4 as a new bolt on - upgrade package. It should be an OPTIONAL, one off outlay. Will you scrap the annual fee please, and introduce a pay as you go system for help & support instead?

3. I wasn't given a contract, when I purchased the software. Why? That is why the annual fee renewal took me by surprise. I thought the first years fee was to 'get me off the ground' and up to speed. At no stage, was the ongoing annual fee made clear to me at the point of purchase. You also doubled my fee, for the second year! Without ANY warning!!!! Why? Do you seriously think that, that is an acceptable thing to do?

4. There are some faults with my software, for example I can not print my order confirmations if I put a deposit on the quote. Faults like that should be an automatic FREE update, when they are rectified! Why should I have to put up with faulty elements of my expensive software, just because I don't buy into your annual tax? Again, I do not think that is acceptable.

These things are a serious concern to me, and they should be a serious concern to any prospective purchaser of Joinerysoft. I look forward to seeing your replies to all 4 points that I have made above.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Well, 72 hours have passed, and I am still waiting for a response to my last comment above. Mr Turner, I appreciate that you are preparing for the upcoming exhibition at the NEC. However, I have to be honest with you, this long delay for your response is reinforcing the belief that I already hold, that you and your company are far more interested in the next new customer, than your existing customers. I await your reply.

[thatsnotafestool]

Well I can answer (2) quite easily. How on earth do you think Joinerysoft can run a support operation when they would have absolutely no idea how much support they will need? How many people will ring up and ask for a 15 minute slot so that they can work out what staffing levels they would need? It's impossible. It might work for a huge company like Microsoft but their customer base is tiny.

TBH I now think that you are being unreasonable. How on earth do you expect him to respond when you tie one of his arms behind his back by not saying which version etc you are on. It's a bit like your customer covering over a window with a tarpaulin and asking you to make another one like it.

[mark270981]

I did walk past their stand today and it had a lot of potential customers in there talking to them.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Well I can answer (2) quite easily. How on earth do you think Joinerysoft can run a support operation when they would have absolutely no idea how much support they will need? How many people will ring up and ask for a 15 minute slot so that they can work out what staffing levels they would need? It's impossible. It might work for a huge company like Microsoft but their customer base is tiny.

TBH I now think that you are being unreasonable. *How on earth do you expect him to respond when you tie one of his arms behind his back by not saying which version etc you are on. **It's a bit like your customer covering over a window with a tarpaulin and asking you to make another one like it.

*If you read my comment above, dated Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:36 pm, you will see that I said "I am happy with version 2".

**Your comment isn't relevant, and makes little sense.

I will tell you what is "unreasonable", £900 per year for a dozen U-Value certificates and 15 minutes of help & support is unreasonable! Look, it doesn't matter what version I purchased, that is totally irrelevant. I don't see why I should have to pay £900 per year, when I am a competent user. I don't want new versions of the software, because I am happy with my version. I don't want the CE Marking part of the software either. So, why can't the new versions, like version 4, be sold as an optional one off purchase?

With regards to the help & support, I do not see why it can't be charged out on a pay as you go basis. Competent users are being punished. Are you a customer/user of Joinerysoft? Because quite frankly, if you're not, I don't see the need for your involvement.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I did walk past their stand today and it had a lot of potential customers in there talking to them.

The saying, 'lambs to the slaughter', springs to mind .

[thatsnotafestool]

Well I can answer (2) quite easily. How on earth do you think Joinerysoft can run a support operation when they would have absolutely no idea how much support they will need? How many people will ring up and ask for a 15 minute slot so that they can work out what staffing levels they would need? It's impossible. It might work for a huge company like Microsoft but their customer base is tiny.

TBH I now think that you are being unreasonable. *How on earth do you expect him to respond when you tie one of his arms behind his back by not saying which version etc you are on. **It's a bit like your customer covering over a window with a tarpaulin and asking you to make another one like it.

*If you read my comment above, dated Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:36 pm, you will see that I said "I am happy with version 2".

**Your comment isn't relevant, and makes little sense.

I will tell you what is "unreasonable", £900 per year for a dozen U-Value certificates and 15 minutes of help & support is unreasonable! Look, it doesn't matter what version I purchased, that is totally irrelevant. I don't see why I should have to pay £900 per year, when I am a competent user. I don't want new versions of the software, because I am happy with my version. I don't want the CE Marking part of the software either. So, why can't the new versions, like version 4, be sold as an optional one off purchase?

With regards to the help & support, I do not see why it can't be charged out on a pay as you go basis. Competent users are being punished. Are you a customer/user of Joinerysoft? Because quite frankly, if you're not, I don't see the need for your involvement.

Well if you don't want to hear some sensible comments back about your moans then don't post on an open forum. That is what forums are for....people to get involved. Sorry if I am not participating in your whinge-fest but having been involved in running software companies of many different sizes my points are very valid. Tough titties if the comments are not want you want to hear.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Well if you don't want to hear some sensible comments back about your moans then don't post on an open forum. That is what forums are for....people to get involved. Sorry if I am not participating in your whinge-fest but having been involved in running software companies of many different sizes my points are very valid. Tough titties if the comments are not want you want to hear.

Sensible comments you say? Well, to pick the bones out of your remaining 'sensible comment', the one that I haven't picked the bones out of already, of course Joinerysoft know "how much support they will need", and "what staffing levels they would need", because they already run a help & support department! Dear oh dear.

I have no problem with anyone coming on here to disagree with me, or anyone trying to convince me that I should consider myself lucky that my dozen U-Value certificates only cost me the mere £900 per annum. What I do have a problem with, is someone like yourself coming on here and bringing nothing to the table. You say that you "used to be involved in running software companies of many different sizes". OK, tell me about these companies? What are the company names? What sector are they for? Did they carry annual fees? If so, how much, and were their customers given contracts? Did these companies double their annual fees, without warning the customer?

Anyone can say, "I used to work in this sector", to justify their "sensible comments". Add something of substance please?

[thatsnotafestool]

Well if you don't want to hear some sensible comments back about your moans then don't post on an open forum. That is what forums are for....people to get involved. Sorry if I am not participating in your whinge-fest but having been involved in running software companies of many different sizes my points are very valid. Tough titties if the comments are not want you want to hear.

Sensible comments you say? Well, to pick the bones out of your remaining 'sensible comment', the one that I haven't picked the bones out of already, of course Joinerysoft know "how much support they will need", and "what staffing levels they would need", because they already run a help & support department! Dear oh dear.

I have no problem with anyone coming on here to disagree with me, or anyone trying to convince me that I should consider myself lucky that my dozen U-Value certificates only cost me the mere £900 per annum. What I do have a problem with, is someone like yourself coming on here and bringing nothing to the table. You say that you "used to be involved in running software companies of many different sizes". OK, tell me about these companies? What are the company names? What sector are they for? Did they carry annual fees? If so, how much, and were their customers given contracts? Did these companies double their annual fees, without warning the customer?



Anyone can say, "I used to work in this sector", to justify their "sensible comments". Add something of substance please?

Whatever.

[mark270981]

speak to the hand cause the face don't wanna know!! haha

[Doug]

Well, 72 hours have passed, and I am still waiting for a response to my last comment above. Mr Turner, I appreciate that you are preparing for the upcoming exhibition at the NEC. However, I have to be honest with you, this long delay for your response is reinforcing the belief that I already hold, that you and your company are far more interested in the next new customer, than your existing customers. I await your reply.

I can't for the life of me think why Alan would want to respond, it would only end up in a slanging match on an open forum, we've seen loads & they never end well for all concerned.

Add to that you wanting to hide behind an alias, for all he or anyone here knows you might not even be a customer of his, just a rival with an axe to grind.

Why not go to W14 & have it out with him face to face, I know that's what I'd do if I'd spent that kind of money & wasn't happy with what I'd received. Complaining on an Internet forum isn't going to solve anything & falling out with other posters will only diminish your credibility with other members.

[mark270981]

Hear hear

[sainty]

FFS Doug, I've just ordered a extra large bag of popcorn and was settling in to watch this baby go mental. Oh well, I'll have to find something else on the internet, to watch, at night. Anyone got any links?

[mark270981]

The Fappening

[senior]

it would only end up in a slanging match on an open forum, we've seen loads & they never end well for all concerned.

Speak for yourself, me and Jas used to slag each other off all the time but it all worked out in the end, over the years I learned not to insult the smelly tw*t.

[ATurner]

Been busy over last few days with W14 show. W14 is going well and I would like to invite all to our stand to see what Joinerysoft is providing currently and our plans for the future.

I would like to thank all those posters who have been posting and trying to encourage "Top Notch Joiner" to contact me directly to resolve his issues.

Top Notch Joiner
I would like to resolve your issues, however I do not feel this forum is actually the right way to approach your concerns. I would like to inform you that you will have accepted our terms at insulation which are referenced on the Pro-forma, invoice, and at point of insulation. Our T&C's are held on our website for all to see before anyone buys.

I am very keen to resolve your concerns and I would like you to visit our stand at the W14 show or if you are unable to call me.

I will apologise in advance however I will not respond to any further posts on this thread unless I know who your are. If you do not want to share your name to others please just share your JMS user ID.

Alan Turner
Managing Director

01608 643302

[Top Notch Joiner]

Whatever.

Is that the name of one of the software companies that you worked for?

Your 'sensible comment' above, did make me laugh. It reminded me of the famous Catherine Tate teenager sketch. I do believe you should be spelling it, "What eva", by the way.

Are you of teenage years, by any chance?

[Top Notch Joiner]

Been busy over last few days with W14 show. W14 is going well and I would like to invite all to our stand to see what Joinerysoft is providing currently and our plans for the future.

I would like to thank all those posters who have been posting and trying to encourage "Top Notch Joiner" to contact me directly to resolve his issues.

Top Notch Joiner
I would like to resolve your issues, however I do not feel this forum is actually the right way to approach your concerns. I would like to inform you that you will have accepted our terms at insulation which are referenced on the Pro-forma, invoice, and at point of insulation. Our T&C's are held on our website for all to see before anyone buys.

I am very keen to resolve your concerns and I would like you to visit our stand at the W14 show or if you are unable to call me.

I will apologise in advance however I will not respond to any further posts on this thread unless I know who your are. If you do not want to share your name to others please just share your JMS user ID.

Alan Turner
Managing Director

01608 643302

Alan,

I have previously written to you, expressing all the concerns that I have mentioned throughout this topic/thread. We have also spoken on the telephone about my concerns. However, you left me with an overwhelming sense that I am to 'like it or lump it'. Writing to you and speaking to you on the telephone has proven to be a pointless exercise for me, which is why I have decided to go about getting my concerns resolved on this internet forum. In fact, when I did write a letter to you, I didn't receive a response for many months! You know that you have us customers over a barrel. You know that you have us by the balls, as it were. That is why I have decided to do this publicly, so that all of my questions and concerns are answered by you. I feel that I have some really valid points of view, about the way that you operate. So, I will be grateful if you will answer my concerns fully.

I will let you have my user ID, so that we can discuss this on this forum, publicly. You probably have an idea as to who I am, having read my comments on this forum anyway. Most of the points that I have raised on this forum, have been brought to your attention in the form of a written letter.

I am going to let you get on with W14, and I will return to this topic/thread next week. By the way, having looked through all of my paperwork for Joinerysoft, and checked back over every email that I have ever received from Joinerysoft, I can confirm that I was never given a copy of your T's & C's. Also, no one directed me towards your website to read the T's & C's.

[thatsnotafestool]

.... Also, no one directed me towards your website to read the T's & C's.

So you admit you didn't bother to see if there were any T's and C's.

Dipstick!

[Top Notch Joiner]

.... Also, no one directed me towards your website to read the T's & C's.

So you admit you didn't bother to see if there were any T's and C's.

Dipstick!

TBH Kevin, or do you prefer to be called Perry? , when you buy some software, you don't automatically think about T's & C's. Especially when you have no idea that you will be hit with an annual fee on top of the rather large initial outlay! If the sales guy had informed me of this annual fee, I may have thought about looking for some T's & C's. I am many things, but I'm not a mind reader.

[MJ80]

Hands up everyone who has bought some software for work with a yearly charge and accepted it and got on with it. That's how it bloody works, get over it.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hands up everyone who has bought some software for work with a yearly charge and accepted it and got on with it. That's how it bloody works, get over it.

Is it? You tell me. What software have you bought that comes with a £900 annual fee then? My accountant hasn't come across a case like it, he said. Tell me more. Bring something of substance to the table, instead of a lazy little post like this.

[PABLO123]

I run Articad a kitchen design software, cost £5,500 twelve years ago, annual fee £450, which
gives you all new updates. Worth every penny in my opinion. With software its an on going thing
if you want it to get better. As everyone else has said you should have read the t & c when spending
that amount of money.

Paul

[MJ80]

I had an annual fee on Autokitchen to update the software and get new models running, tech support and training too.

Stop moaning.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I run Articad a kitchen design software, cost £5,500 twelve years ago, annual fee £450, which
gives you all new updates. Worth every penny in my opinion. With software its an on going thing
if you want it to get better. As everyone else has said you should have read the t & c when spending
that amount of money.

Paul

Thanks for your input. At last, something of substance from someone who actually relates first hand to my situation. Welcome on board Pablo.

The thing is, if like me, you had never purchased any business software before, you need EVERYTHING explained to you in some form. Be that verbally, in written form, a sales DVD, what ever. Having never purchased such a thing before, I had no idea whatsoever, about annual fees. The initial cost was so huge, that the thought never even entered my head. I thought it was a one off purchase. You do live and learn of course, but I am not a mind reader. Joinerysoft have a duty to make sure their customers are fully aware of the way that it works.

[Top Notch Joiner]

I had an annual fee on Autokitchen to update the software and get new models running, tech support and training too.

Stop moaning.

Had? Past tence? How much was the initial purchase and how much was the annual fee?

I do hate half hearted posts! Explain yourself.

[thatsnotafestool]

.... Having never purchased such a thing before, I had no idea whatsoever, about annual fees. The initial cost was so huge, that the thought never even entered my head. I thought it was a one off purchase. You do live and learn of course,....

As I said.

Dipstick.

Actually no....you cocked up. Now you are trying to push the blame on the supplier for your c*ck up.

Dipstick? No, I'll re-phrase that.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Hmmmm, tasteful stuff. Joinerysoft must be so proud to have someone of your ilk, backing them up. Shall we put this one down as one of your 'sensible comments'? I'm still waiting for this long list of software companies that you 'used' to work for........

[thatsnotafestool]

Keep digging, mate. Keep digging.

[Top Notch Joiner]

Digging? What, did you bury your list of former software employers?

[thatsnotafestool]

Sorry if you were not thick skinned enough to appreciate my comment. Perhaps this one suits you better?



Anyway, you're getting tiresome now and so off you go onto the Ignore list. Ta ta.

[Top Notch Joiner]

OK Kevin, Perry, software specialist, "what eva" your name is. What eva floats your boat.